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#21 2018-03-25 16:04:17

etc
Developer
Registered: 2010-11-11
Posts: 2,948
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Re: Feedback to: Textpattern CMS 4.7.0 beta 2 released

ruud wrote #310331:

I would expect this feature to also take into account changing to a different template in the sections tab.

That’s actually what bothers me, especially with future section-based (?) custom fields. Say, Section A with some custom fields set is associated to cf-specific Theme A. Same thing for Section B and Theme B. Now I’m working on Theme B, so all sections are processed through Theme B templates for me while logged in. But Theme B could be absolutely irrelevant for Section A… am I missing something?


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#22 2018-03-25 16:26:27

Bloke
Developer
From: Leeds, UK
Registered: 2006-01-29
Posts: 8,458
Website

Re: Feedback to: Textpattern CMS 4.7.0 beta 2 released

ruud wrote #310341:

If you switch a section from theme A to theme B, you could have the working theme automatically set to B as well.

That’s a good idea. Whichever one you last assigned to a section could become the working theme. Yes, let’s do that, thanks for the tip.


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#23 2018-03-25 16:31:26

Bloke
Developer
From: Leeds, UK
Registered: 2006-01-29
Posts: 8,458
Website

Re: Feedback to: Textpattern CMS 4.7.0 beta 2 released

etc wrote #310346:

future section-based (?) custom fields.

Hadn’t gone that far. Was leaving that up to plugins, and they can then alter the workflow (including theme interactions) accordingly. Was just planning to make “a place to store stuff against any content, and mechanism to manage it”.

That said…

Say, Section A with some custom fields set is associated to cf-specific Theme A. Same thing for Section B and Theme B. Now I’m working on Theme B, so all sections are processed through Theme B templates for me while logged in. But Theme B could be absolutely irrelevant for Section A… am I missing something?

Mmmm, true. One thing we could do is hide this feature behind a per-user pref on the Sections panel. So if you don’t like ‘preview’, turn it off – even temporarily. At least that gives you the option.


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#24 2018-03-25 16:59:53

etc
Developer
Registered: 2010-11-11
Posts: 2,948
Website

Re: Feedback to: Textpattern CMS 4.7.0 beta 2 released

Bloke wrote #310350:

One thing we could do is hide this feature behind a per-user pref on the Sections panel. So if you don’t like ‘preview’, turn it off – even temporarily. At least that gives you the option.

Dunno, the feature is very handy. We could probably introduce some “ancestor” field for cloned themes, and switch to the “dev” theme only the sections associated with the theme or its ancestor? And if a theme has no ancestor, it applies to every section, as presently. Cumbersome to manage, for sure.


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#25 2018-03-25 20:10:49

gomedia
Plugin Author
Registered: 2008-06-01
Posts: 1,220
Website

Re: Feedback to: Textpattern CMS 4.7.0 beta 2 released

Bloke wrote #310339:

But without some way to “start afresh” you’re forced into the even less intuitive mechanism of clicking the same tab again to clear the panel.

Surely web users are capable of understanding how to abandon work on a current page – i.e. go to a different one or close the window. I don’t get why all of a sudden a “start afresh” link is needed. You’re creating a rod for you own back – there’s no “Create section” on the Create section page etc etc. And besides the link text doesn’t describe the intended function – i.e. “start afresh”, “erase input”

I’m sure general UI guidelines somewhere frown on having redundant links to current page? A cursory look at one stated:

Links are a means for the user to navigate to other pages.

- “other” being the operative word.

And going back to the “Create article” text under the Publish button – it’s not even a link. It doesn’t provide any additional information to the user that the Write heading and the Publish button doesn’t already.

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#26 2018-03-25 20:27:43

etc
Developer
Registered: 2010-11-11
Posts: 2,948
Website

Re: Feedback to: Textpattern CMS 4.7.0 beta 2 released

gomedia wrote #310355:

And going back to the “Create article” text under the Publish button – it’s not even a link. It doesn’t provide any additional information to the user that the Write heading and the Publish button doesn’t already.

It does for me, since Write heading and Publish button do not tell a new article (or a copy) from an existing draft.


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#27 2018-03-25 21:37:20

Bloke
Developer
From: Leeds, UK
Registered: 2006-01-29
Posts: 8,458
Website

Re: Feedback to: Textpattern CMS 4.7.0 beta 2 released

gomedia wrote #310355:

Surely web users are capable of understanding how to abandon work on a current page – i.e. go to a different one or close the window. I don’t get why all of a sudden a “start afresh” link is needed.

Sure. Not disputing that. It just seemed a bit odd to have the ability on most panels and not others where we can “create new”. The Categories panel is due for a complete overhaul so we’ve left that oddball alone for now. Files, Images and Plugins are different because you have to upload to create new. Pretty much everywhere else, we can (and do) offer a direct way to create a new asset: Section, Page, Form, Style, Author, Link, and Article (on list panel). And they’ve all been available since 4.6.2. The only panel without this was Write.

I’m not married to the idea of “new” links by any means. It’s weighing up their usefulness against the required additional screen furniture (and potential confusion, as you rightly highlight) compared to not having them. Some panels use buttons, others use links, we’ve touched on that before and it comes down to the way the panel is used.

If you’re in the middle of an article and want to abandon it, sure the path is more obvious – navigate away to discard your edits. But reading or tinkering with an old article you’ve written that inspires you to write another takes two clicks “Content->Write” vs one click “Create”.

Same if you’re checking a Form or Page template over: to create a new one takes two clicks on the menu bar, and we have to factor in two things here:

  • New users. “Sure, this template’s great, but how do I make my own one, dammit?”
  • The “last used” ability now means that if you (re)visit the Pages panel (for example) the last-used template is remembered. So clicking the menu now doesn’t start afresh. This happens on the Forms and Styles panels too.

Having the ability to duplicate or create a new one is one click away with the links. And without it, you can’t actually start afresh on the Pages, Forms and Styles panels now.

It comes down to how often these things are used and whether they’re generally useful. Would I miss them? Hardly. I use Duplicate a fair bit, but ‘new’? Not much, if ever. Am I typical or atypical? Don’t answer that ;-)

One could argue that having the ability to Create on an individual asset panel, there should be the ability to delete too? At the moment – aside from Pages and Styles – Delete is mostly reserved for multi-edit actions. Would anyone use direct deletion? Dunno. It’d take up more space unless we start hiding such actions behind a menu… which then negates the two-click-one-click thing (and that’s a shaky argument at best anyway).

I think two things will help:

1. The wording is probably less than ideal.
2. The position of the links might imply they carry more weight than they should (e.g. having ‘Create page’ at the top of the panel after you’ve started writing brand new content, without realising Save is down below the textarea).

Are these UX concerns? I’m not best versed to decide here. But we take all concerns into consideration and try to balance them as best we can, so thanks for keeping this alive as it’ll help shape the UI.


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#28 2018-03-26 00:10:53

gomedia
Plugin Author
Registered: 2008-06-01
Posts: 1,220
Website

Re: Feedback to: Textpattern CMS 4.7.0 beta 2 released

etc wrote #310356:

It does for me, since Write heading and Publish button do not tell a new article (or a copy) from an existing draft.

Sorry don’t understand the reasoning. When an article is duplicated the button becomes “Save”, so obviously the article now exists. When the status changes to live the button becomes “Publish”. People can generally remember a couple of previous workflow steps anyway. So won’t get lost … a “Create article” label still seems a bit superfluous.

If it’s the right thing to do, where does it end: “Duplicated article, not published”, “Existing article, unedited” etc etc.

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#29 2018-03-26 00:21:07

Destry
Moderator
From: Haut-Rhin
Registered: 2004-08-04
Posts: 4,018
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Re: Feedback to: Textpattern CMS 4.7.0 beta 2 released

Regarding this…

Which I only see when on the Write panel in context of a new article not saved yet, and the button says “Save” not “Publish”…

Wouldn’t it clear things up if the button text read “Create article” in that context instead of “Save” or “Publish”? And that would be all you see in that context. Then in any other context — after an article has been created initially — the button text changes to “Save”.

I don’t think “Publish” makes sense unless you mean “Publish live”, but that’s not always the case. I never publish live first thing; always create first as a draft.

Maybe I’m oversimplifying functionality that’s more complex than what I take for granted. ;)


The text persuades, the *notes prove。

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#30 2018-03-26 06:07:08

philwareham
Core designer
From: Farnham, Surrey, UK
Registered: 2009-06-11
Posts: 3,092
Website

Re: Feedback to: Textpattern CMS 4.7.0 beta 2 released

I agree the ‘Publish’ button isn’t great UX. it would be nice if some AJAX determined whether ‘Live’ was set us the article status and changed between ‘Save’ and ‘Publish’ accordingly.

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