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#1 2014-10-30 10:52:52

gaekwad
Member
From: People's Republic of Cornwall
Registered: 2005-11-19
Posts: 2,379

[UX] New installation default post and comment i18n

Aside from available translation resource, are there technical reasons why the default post and comment shouldn’t be internationalised, with a fallback to the default (English) version if it’s not in the installation textpack?

From a usability point of view, a user can run the entire Textpattern installation process in ~40 languages, but the default post is always English. It doesn’t matter how helpful the default post is, if English is not a familiar language to the user then there’s a abrupt stop. That’s not ideal.

Something like a bunch of new fields in the installation textpack with the language strings for:

  • default post title
  • default post url
  • default post body
  • default comment author
  • default comment body

…would be one approach to take.

Thoughts?

Last edited by gaekwad (2014-10-30 10:53:09)

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#2 2014-10-30 11:02:57

Bloke
Developer
From: Leeds, UK
Registered: 2006-01-29
Posts: 8,458
Website

Re: [UX] New installation default post and comment i18n

That’s a very valid point. But doing this using lang strings isn’t going to cut it, as the interface doesn’t internationalise the content of fields, just their labels. Content in the textpattern table is ‘just text’ to Textpattern and it has no notion of language for content.

If you’d like to be cut in on the grand plans I have for improving this situation, drop me a note and I’ll send you the doc for you to tear apart.


The smd plugin menagerie — for when you need one more gribble of power from Textpattern. Bleeding-edge code available on GitHub.

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#3 2014-10-30 11:12:33

gaekwad
Member
From: People's Republic of Cornwall
Registered: 2005-11-19
Posts: 2,379

Re: [UX] New installation default post and comment i18n

Bloke wrote #285247:

But doing this using lang strings isn’t going to cut it, as the interface doesn’t internationalise the content of fields, just their labels. Content in the textpattern table is ‘just text’ to Textpattern and it has no notion of language for content.

I ran an install in es_ES as a test. Here’s the thing: the comment invite text is in Spanish (`Comentarios`), and rightly remains so when I switch the locale to en_GB. I presume — and you know I’m not a developer, so bear that in mind — that setup_comment_invite does the magic there.

Last edited by gaekwad (2014-10-30 11:13:19)

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#4 2014-10-30 11:31:01

Bloke
Developer
From: Leeds, UK
Registered: 2006-01-29
Posts: 8,458
Website

Re: [UX] New installation default post and comment i18n

gaekwad wrote #285248:

comment invite text is in Spanish (`Comentarios`), and rightly remains so when I switch the locale to en_GB.

Yes, the default comment invite text is a special case. It’s a pref in the txp_prefs table, and everything in there is subject to translation so it’ll reflect the installed language.

But when you edit the (default, i18n) invite text in the Write panel on a per-article basis, it’s stored along with the article content in the textpattern table, which is then ‘just text’. The other user editable fields (title, body text, custom fields, etc) are all true content and are therefore treated as ‘just text’ the whole time.

Does that sort of make sense?


The smd plugin menagerie — for when you need one more gribble of power from Textpattern. Bleeding-edge code available on GitHub.

Txp Builders – finely-crafted code, design and Txp

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#5 2014-10-30 11:32:42

gaekwad
Member
From: People's Republic of Cornwall
Registered: 2005-11-19
Posts: 2,379

Re: [UX] New installation default post and comment i18n

Bloke wrote #285249:

Yes, the default comment invite text is a special case. It’s a pref in the txp_prefs table, and everything in there is subject to translation so it’ll reflect the installed language.

[…]

Does that sort of make sense?

Absolutely makes sense, yes – thank you.

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#6 2014-10-30 14:49:06

uli
Moderator
From: Cologne
Registered: 2006-08-15
Posts: 4,152

Re: [UX] New installation default post and comment i18n

And would you guys see severe downsides from using the txp:lang tag in an article, like this:

<txp:variable name="lang"><txp:lang /></txp:variable>
<txp:if_variable name="lang" value="en-en">Hello world!</txp:if_variable>
<txp:if_variable name="lang" value="fr-fr">Salut monde!</txp:if_variable>
<txp:if_variable name="lang" value="es-es">¡Hola mundo!</txp:if_variable>

OK, that’s only the body copy, not the other elements Pete listed, but it’s the main part, the biggest stopper if not really readable.


In bad weather I never leave home without wet_plugout, smd_where_used and adi_form_links

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#7 2014-10-30 15:50:17

Bloke
Developer
From: Leeds, UK
Registered: 2006-01-29
Posts: 8,458
Website

Re: [UX] New installation default post and comment i18n

uli wrote #285268:

And would you guys see severe downsides from using the txp:lang tag in an article

No downsides in terms of body copy as far as I can tell, except for the fact article #1 would be huge :-)

Two things we have to be wary of here:

  1. It works for body (and would work for excerpt) but won’t work for title. So “Bienvenue a …” etc is not possible.
  2. Having a multi-lingual first article might give the impression that Txp supports multi-lingual content out of the box which, at the moment at least, is not true.

That last point is the biggest red flag for me. Although having this available right now in 4.5.x might seem compelling, I’m concerned that such a first article might imply Txp language functionality that outstrips its actual capabilities. I may be wrong here so please correct me if I’m being ridiculous.

The thing is, true multi-linguality is not actually that difficult to achieve, either in core or, at the very least, to add a framework to enable a proper plugin (or plugin suite) to pop up instead of the long-in-the-tooth and difficult-to-maintain MLP we have today.

There are a few kinks in the theory to iron out yet, so I’d like to garner input from a few folks such as your fine selves on the proposal before I unleash it and see if any benevolent developers will help bring it to reality on Github. If you have a half hour to spare to comb through the document, I really would appreciate it. Drop me a mail if so.


The smd plugin menagerie — for when you need one more gribble of power from Textpattern. Bleeding-edge code available on GitHub.

Txp Builders – finely-crafted code, design and Txp

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#8 2014-10-30 17:29:02

GugUser
Member
From: Quito (Ecuador)
Registered: 2007-12-16
Posts: 1,391

Re: [UX] New installation default post and comment i18n

Hola uli: here the correct ¡Hola mundo! for copy and paste in your example.

;-)

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#9 2014-10-30 18:08:50

uli
Moderator
From: Cologne
Registered: 2006-08-15
Posts: 4,152

Re: [UX] New installation default post and comment i18n

Bloke wrote #285270:

[…] I’m concerned that such a first article might imply Txp language functionality that outstrips its actual capabilities. I may be wrong here so please correct me if I’m being ridiculous.

I certainly can’t correct you, I just have a gut feeling that most people would like to be welcomed in their own language. That’s what I’d like to promote.

In my book, having such an article would simply bridge the gap between a multilingual back-end and the English “What do you want to do next” article. It would as little brag about multi-linguality as the possibility to choose a back-end language is bragging about that. Only if users switched their admin language it would become visible that there’s a mechanism that cares for the right language. Without switching the language, reading the article in the users native language is the most natural thing, like for you English speaking folks when you go to the front side of a fresh installation.

Drop me a mail if so.

Will do.


In bad weather I never leave home without wet_plugout, smd_where_used and adi_form_links

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#10 2014-10-30 18:11:50

uli
Moderator
From: Cologne
Registered: 2006-08-15
Posts: 4,152

Re: [UX] New installation default post and comment i18n

Hola GugUser, that’s just a font display thing, I used alt-shift-1 (German keyboard).


In bad weather I never leave home without wet_plugout, smd_where_used and adi_form_links

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